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Date:	11/18/99 10:49:30 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 18 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1360<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
RE: Starship disabling weapons...<BR>
Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
[none]<BR>
[none]<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: <BR>
Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
Re: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
Droyne partial "Lexicon" on-line.<BR>
racing<BR>
Re: racing<BR>
Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:10:18 -0600<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Alas, you are projecting a rather recent cultural phenomenon into a<BR>
>situation where it just plain *doesn't work*.<BR>
><BR>
>Tourism, of the sort you are thinking of is a creation of the railroad,<BR>
>the steamship, and most especially the *airplane*.<BR>
><BR>
>You didn't get huge numbers of "average joe" tourists until<BR>
>transportation was cheap AND IT WAS POSSIBLE TO MAKE THE TRIP IN NO<BR>
>MORE THAN TWO WEEKS!<BR>
<BR>
The model one often goes to is the age of steamships, when it took<BR>
a lot longer to get anywhere.  IIRC, people didn't, in fact, take<BR>
short vacations to distant lands.  OTOH, it wasn't unheard of to<BR>
take months off (esp for the young after college) and take a "grand<BR>
tour".<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:47:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
- --- Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
> My apologies for sending this to the list... I<BR>
> couldn't find the original<BR>
> posts in the thread, <BR>
That's alright, Chris, it was my fault. It was a<BR>
discussion that Jeff Zeitlin and I began a couple days<BR>
ago, which we thought could go onto the TML. My<BR>
editing skills are not too hot, hopefully it was<BR>
readable:)<BR>
<BR>
> To be fair to the Storyteller System games, they're<BR>
> not supposed to be<BR>
> really all that depressing,<BR>
Yes, and AD&D isn't supposed to be a dungeon crawl,<BR>
either. But when you're writing, you have to consider<BR>
not only what you write, but who's going to read it,<BR>
and how they'll interpret it.<BR>
<BR>
> Ultimately, the tragedy in the various White Wolf<BR>
> games comes from the<BR>
> alienation and isolation inherent in the settings.<BR>
> Bruce<BR>
> Willis has made a career<BR>
> playing the embittered, alienated and isolated hero.<BR>
Quite true, and for me that makes these settings a<BR>
problem - a "party" makes little sense (except perhaps<BR>
in Werewolf, where they're a "pack"). And I've seen<BR>
that typically people do create such characters, which<BR>
then utterly fail to co-operate. I agree that we need<BR>
something better than "you meet in an inn and decide<BR>
to adventure together" to keep the group together,<BR>
some deeper reason, but I just don't see how it can<BR>
happen in the World of Darkness.<BR>
<BR>
> Considering the fact that most roleplayers,<BR>
> especially young roleplayers,<BR>
> are *already* socially isolated "strange dudes", and<BR>
> the fact that young<BR>
> people today are literally filled to the brim with<BR>
> anxiety, it's not hard to<BR>
> see the appeal. Most of them *are* managing that in<BR>
> real life already.<BR>
So why reinforce the troubles they already have?<BR>
better a game which encourages sociability,<BR>
co-operation, and so on. But perhaps I'm thiking too<BR>
much of the "mentoring" aspects of GMing younger<BR>
players.<BR>
>*All*<BR>
> roleplaying games have the<BR>
> capacity to collapse into either mindless cliches or<BR>
> meaningless slaughter.<BR>
You're right, there. But some systems, some genres,<BR>
lend themselves more easily to that than others. Hands<BR>
up those who've given up on, or never entered a Star<BR>
Wars game because they were overwhelmed by film quotes<BR>
and cliches?:)<BR>
<BR>
> I can see where you're coming from, but the<BR>
> "excessive liberalism" is<BR>
> slightly out of place. It's not like goths are<BR>
> embracing some sort of<BR>
> fascistic ideology or anything. <BR>
No, it's a complete lack of an ideology - a nihilism,<BR>
or the pseudo-religion of armchair<BR>
self-psychoanalysis.<BR>
<BR>
Certainly I don't think all World of Darkness players<BR>
are Goths. But you don't find many Goths playing<BR>
Traveller, that's for sure. <BR>
<BR>
Maybe we just have more depressed Goths Down Under?<BR>
<BR>
By "method acting" we mean people becoming deeply<BR>
involved in their characters, to an almost<BR>
pathological degree. Taking themselves WAY too<BR>
seriously. I'm not too sold on the "growing up too<BR>
fast" idea, either, not when so many are thirty years<BR>
old living with their parents and never held a steady<BR>
job types. Kids today, it seems to me, are learning<BR>
the hard stuff, drugs and violence, without learning<BR>
the more pleasant stuff - work, relationships<BR>
(committed).<BR>
<BR>
> >[Kyle writes: Well, I say, those that don't take on<BR>
> >the kids, shouldn't complain that there are so few<BR>
> in<BR>
> >roleplaying today, so few at conventions!]<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Yep, at least *something* I can agree with.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:28:46 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship disabling weapons...<BR>
<BR>
One of my players suggested that nuclear dampers (In TNE) could be focussed<BR>
on the engineering section of a ship and could either reduce power plant<BR>
output or boost it resulting in the drives safetys shutting them down. I<BR>
think this may also work against the jump drives fast burn fusion reactor.<BR>
<BR>
What do people think?<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:48:09 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
<BR>
>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
>Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
...<BR>
>Anyway, something else that I found is that the High Guard stats for the<BR>
20,000t<BR>
>Battle Riders show that each have "4 Gunboats" as carried craft - but the stats<BR>
>for the gunboats are not given. Thus the "154th Squadron" is missing some<BR>
ships.<BR>
>If I get some time, I'll try to re-engineer the 'Riders according to HG,<BR>
just so<BR>
>that I can see how big the "gunboats" are. Obviously, they are NOT 20,000t<BR>
>worth, but probably closer to the median 1500t figure..<BR>
<BR>
  Wonder-<bleep>. I get negative discretionary tonnage :(<BR>
  two bridges = 4%      M-6 = 17%       A:11 = 12%      P-25 = 25%<BR>
 for 58% (or 11,600 Dt), plus 5,000 Dt of L-Hyd, and 2,000 Dt for the<BR>
Type "N" spinal meson - so you have only 1,400 DT before allocations <BR>
for almost 800 crew at ~2+ Dt each - so forget the Frozen Watch, fuel<BR>
plant, and any boats :(<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:28:23 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>>The former Alameda Naval base now has the USS Hornet.  They did a great<BR>
>>program on the thirtith anniversary of the Moon landing.<BR>
><BR>
>Speaking of Naval bases in Alameda..;)<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone ever wonder why, in Star Trek 4, Chekov keeps pronouncing "vessels"<BR>
>with a "w"?  There is no "w" in the russian alphabet.  "Vessels" would have<BR>
>sounded just like it should, albeit with a strong slavic accent.  :)<BR>
<BR>
The same reason one particular linguistic group of immigrants into<BR>
southwest US tended to replace l's with R's (an oriental population):<BR>
overcompensation. I actually have met two russions who overcompensate the<BR>
v/w difference in that very manner, and one chinese gent who did likewise<BR>
with r/l differentiation.<BR>
<BR>
In essence, they worked real hard at the "American Sound they didn't know"<BR>
that they got it down, but since it was related to the other sound in<BR>
pronounciation that they lost track of which does what. Additionally, all<BR>
three individuals were dyslexic.<BR>
<BR>
A similar mistake I've encountered is some russian speakers are unwilling<BR>
to jotate [prounounced joe-tate] (add the leading "y" sound) to english<BR>
words, since they were told american english doesn't use jotation. For<BR>
reference, the word "you" jotates explicitly (due to the Y), but "ewe" has<BR>
implied jotation, as do "pleasure", "measure"; confusion occurs with<BR>
"-tion" ended words, too. Russian uses extensive jotation, and had rules<BR>
for dealing with normally jotated letters following certain letters that<BR>
preclude comfortable jotation.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:40:42 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tim MacPherson <timac@home.com><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>Can anyone recommend a novel that is "traveller-like" in atmosphere?<BR>
><BR>
a few series come to mind, for different reasons:<BR>
Anne McCaffrey's "Ship who..." (Ship who Sang, Ship who searched) series,<BR>
and the Freedom Series (Freedom's Landing, Freedom's Choice).<BR>
<BR>
While the FSP of the ship series is NOT the imperium, it shares many<BR>
traits; additionaly, the BB ships make me think of about TL14 workarounds<BR>
and the IISS. The drive mechanism is (probably intentionally) left very<BR>
vague.<BR>
<BR>
The Freedom series has jump lags, no FTL comm that I recall, and an aslan<BR>
like race that is VERY well presented (The Catteni). Again, no direct<BR>
measures, but it feels very gameable with traveller. And, alas, I know that<BR>
Anne McCaffrey knows some traveller gamers.<BR>
<BR>
Another series, this time by Robert Aspirin, is the "Phule's" series<BR>
(Phule's Company, Phules Paradise). This series, humour based, shows some<BR>
lifts from traveller, like time dialation from misjumps, some form of "jump<BR>
drive", marines (the Legion), Regular Army types, and some other good bits.<BR>
I'd put it about TL 13-15....<BR>
<BR>
Yet another series: the Sten Series, by Cole and Bunch. This is a much more<BR>
"Epic Space Opera"... larger than life, full of action, with extensive<BR>
travel times, big fleets, and fighters.... but with a good look at the<BR>
roles of various types of space military personell. The Imperium here is<BR>
led by the "Eternal Emperor" (who is, in a way, truly eternal), who rules a<BR>
laizze-faire capitalist imperium by controlling the fuel source of choice.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:48:53 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>>>_101 Ballistic Flightless Birds, actually, which will feature thrown<BR>
>>>penguins along with catapulted ostriches, dropped EMU's, hurled dodos, and<BR>
>>>so forth.<BR>
><BR>
>What will the gearheads use to calculate the characteristics for these? How<BR>
>about "Feathers, Fusion & Steel"?<BR>
<BR>
How about checking the rules for "beast power" in "Wood, wind, steam, and<BR>
Steel" [Challenge Magazine, written for MT]. Easily adaptable to FF&S (Many<BR>
tables were lifted straight.]<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:01:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
>for dealing with normally jotated letters following certain letters that<BR>
>preclude comfortable jotation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Are you referring to the letters, "Makeeznok" and "Tvordeeznok"?  Jotation<BR>
in russian is hard for me to understand becuase I don't fully understand<BR>
their rules for it.<BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:03:14 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> To be fair to the Storyteller System games, they're not supposed to be<BR>
> really all that depressing, and most of the darkness is purely a<BR>
> matter of style. When played "right", Vampire is really about tragic<BR>
> heroism. Check out the section on Humanity if you don't believe me.<BR>
> Every other game in the Storyteller System line has something similar<BR>
> built in, whether it's part of the plot, as it is with the struggle<BR>
> against dark forces for control of reality in Mage, or part of the<BR>
> system, as it is with Vampire and Werewolf, or a little of both, as it<BR>
> is in Wraith.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Vampire et al are my primary games, and I find myself disagreeing with<BR>
what has been said here on the list (although not with Chris in<BR>
particular).<BR>
<BR>
Vampire can (like every RPG) be used in many different ways. I prefer to<BR>
run scenarios with intrigue, personal relations, and social conflicts.<BR>
Kind of like a soap opera, but with fangs. I find it refreshing to play<BR>
a game where the "objective" is seldom to kill your opponents, instead<BR>
discrediting them and so on.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with the "tragic hero" idea somewhat, but that doesn't need to<BR>
hold true for every character in a game (although one or two characters<BR>
are usually played that way regardless). I would rather call Vampire a<BR>
game about morality. Which part of that concept (villain, hero) the<BR>
player characters take is up to the players/GM.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 06:58:08 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
<BR>
 >Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com> types out on his Sayat designed weasel <BR>
powered keyboard:<BR>
 >- --- cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> wrote:<BR>
 >> >Real world items:<BR>
 >> ><BR>
 >> >A derivative of one of the high blood pressure<BR>
 >> meds. It slowly lowers<BR>
 >> >your blood pressure. After a while, you get faint<BR>
 >> if you are standing.<BR>
 >> >So you sit down (or fall down) after more time, you<BR>
 >> are faint even<BR>
 >> >sitting up, so you lie down or fall down. Now, you<BR>
 >> are flat on your<BR>
 >> >back, and getting over excited will tend to make<BR>
 >> you pass out. Now the<BR>
 >> >riot police can collect you.<BR>
 >Great, except that old people and kids will get killed<BR>
 >by it! This is the sort of problem that's stopped such<BR>
 >chemical solutions being used nowadays.<BR>
<BR>
In particularly oppressive governments, this may not be considered a 'bad' <BR>
side effect.<BR>
It culls the work force of ineffectives.<BR>
<BR>
Such government typically keep a tight rein on the media, so they don't <BR>
worry about the bad press.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free<BR>
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be<BR>
infringed.  -- http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:08:13 -0600<BR>
From: "shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
<BR>
Will Feathers, Fusion, and Steel include rules for any of the <BR>
following?<BR>
<BR>
Exploding Penguins on your telly<BR>
quantum duck hunts<BR>
Dive bombing pigeons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh<BR>
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf<BR>
ADD/ADHD Advocate<BR>
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:51:35 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
<BR>
"cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>>> Sources close to the BITS Director suggest that the Penguin throwing<BR>
>>>> supplement may well be ready for press very soon.<BR>
>><BR>
>>>_101 Ballistic Flightless Birds, actually, which will feature thrown<BR>
>>>penguins along with catapulted ostriches, dropped EMU's, hurled dodos, and<BR>
>>>so forth.<BR>
><BR>
>What will the gearheads use to calculate the characteristics for these? How<BR>
>about "Feathers, Fusion & Steel"?<BR>
<BR>
	"Fire, Fusion & Feathers"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:17:27 -0500<BR>
From: "C Michael" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: shadowcat <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
> Will Feathers, Fusion, and Steel include rules for any of the<BR>
> following?<BR>
><BR>
> Exploding Penguins on your telly<BR>
> quantum duck hunts<BR>
> Dive bombing pigeons<BR>
<BR>
Better they than a Romulan "Bird of Prey" 8-x<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget the famous Foo droppings (most deadly).  Of course, that's<BR>
only dangerous if you try to wash it off.  You know what they say: if the<BR>
Foo s**ts, wear it!<BR>
<BR>
Crusty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:01:33 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
<BR>
Craig Berry writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The Bradys (Mike & Carol, Greg, Peter, Bobby, Marcia, Jan,<BR>
>Cindy, plus Alice)<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I can't tell you how much it scares me that you can name the<BR>
	entire family...<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:11:50 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
<BR>
<david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Just had another look at the SMC, and Doug is right - is could have been done<BR>
> MUCH better. For example, in the Referee's Synopsis of the intro adventure,<BR>
> references are made that are left out of the expanded version - you really <BR>
> need to read both sections fully to understand what the hell is going on.<BR>
<BR>
Furthermore, the character generation section in the back is a rehash of<BR>
Citizens of the Imperium, except that in my copy it's possibly one of the<BR>
most typo-ridden sections I've seen in Traveller.  Like, for example, I <BR>
think the Bureaucrat had the Barbarian skill tables -- or perhaps it was<BR>
the other way around.... <BR>
<BR>
> BTW, the 154th appears as a 6-2-8 unstreamlined squadron counter in the 5FW<BR>
> boxed game (6 = Attack, 2 = Bombardment, 8 = Defence).<BR>
<BR>
Yeah.  I dunno -- I'm not quite sure I can picture the 154th in SMC as rating<BR>
6-2-8 in the 5FW game.  :)<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:17:56 -0600<BR>
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com><BR>
Subject: Droyne partial "Lexicon" on-line.<BR>
<BR>
Folks,<BR>
<BR>
Prince's University on Corlano (Foreven/Corlano 2309 C866888-9)<BR>
has on-line its partial Oynprith Glyph Lexicon (probably a misnomer),<BR>
which contains a partial word-list and glyph-map of Oynprith, plus some<BR>
examples that indicate orthography.<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/eaglestone/oynprith/Dictionary.html<BR>
<BR>
Corlano's root page is<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/eaglestone/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Share and enjoy".<BR>
<BR>
- -Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:39:43 -0600<BR>
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com><BR>
Subject: racing<BR>
<BR>
Good ideas I've heard so far for the races:<BR>
<BR>
1) Computer mis-use is grounds for forfeiture.<BR>
2) Mag/Light/Solar wind sails and/or Ion drives.<BR>
3) Folding up them sails and diving into a GGs atmosphere to change course.<BR>
4) An asteroid belt dodge (probably high acceleration?)<BR>
5) Media-related chaos.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to Cory for those last two.<BR>
Question for y'all: how big and how far apart are the particles in a gas giant's ring?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:55:45 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: racing<BR>
<BR>
At 09:39 AM 11/18/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Good ideas I've heard so far for the races:<BR>
><BR>
>1) Computer mis-use is grounds for forfeiture.<BR>
>2) Mag/Light/Solar wind sails and/or Ion drives.<BR>
>3) Folding up them sails and diving into a GGs atmosphere to change course.<BR>
>4) An asteroid belt dodge (probably high acceleration?)<BR>
>5) Media-related chaos.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks to Cory for those last two.<BR>
>Question for y'all: how big and how far apart are the particles in a gas<BR>
giant's ring?<BR>
><BR>
>Rob<BR>
<BR>
        From Io to sand, in size.  Density, I have no idea.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:10:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
While there is some stuff in this post that relates to Traveller, it's going<BR>
extremely off topic extremely fast. Please post any replies that don't have<BR>
to do with my characterizations of Traveller to me personally. I will be<BR>
responding to any response personally. Sorry for taking up the bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>That's alright, Chris, it was my fault. It was a discussion that Jeff<BR>
>Zeitlin and I began a couple days ago, which we thought could go<BR>
>onto the TML. My editing skills are not too hot, hopefully it was<BR>
<BR>
>readable:)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It was plenty readable. ;)<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, and AD&D isn't supposed to be a dungeon crawl,<BR>
<BR>
>either. But when you're writing, you have to consider<BR>
<BR>
>not only what you write, but who's going to read it,<BR>
<BR>
>and how they'll interpret it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On the contrary, AD&D is supposed to work best for dungeon crawls.<BR>
Everything about the game, from the proliferation of underground beasties to<BR>
the party dynamic is aimed toward the dungeon crawl.<BR>
<BR>
I also disagree that the makers of a game - or anything else for that<BR>
matter - have some sort of obligation to take possible misinterpretations<BR>
into account.<BR>
<BR>
>Quite true, and for me that makes these settings a<BR>
>problem - a "party" makes little sense (except perhaps<BR>
>in Werewolf, where they're a "pack").<BR>
<BR>
Let's face it, a party makes little sense in *most* roleplaying games, and a<BR>
GM, or the players, have to come up with all sorts of reasons why their<BR>
characters would be together in the first place. I remember when I first<BR>
bought MegaTraveller and saw all of the careers in the character generation<BR>
system I found it difficult to imagine building a party from such disparate<BR>
character types.<BR>
<BR>
Whatever its other faults may be, AD&D does a wonderful job of this by<BR>
building character interdependence into the rules. Traveller does it by way<BR>
of background. One of the reasons that merchant and mercenary campaigns are<BR>
so popular in travel is that the background props up such games. Vampire<BR>
takes a little from column A and a little from column B. The clans play off<BR>
of each other mechanically, and they fit into certain roles within a party.<BR>
The background is also rich enough that reasons for getting parties together<BR>
grow out of this.<BR>
<BR>
The dirty little secret of roleplaying games is that the real reason for a<BR>
party in any game is that a bunch of friends get together around a table and<BR>
choose to spend their time playing a game. Whether this is supported in the<BR>
game by the rules or background doesn't matter.<BR>
<BR>
Still, to get back around to your original point, although the essence of<BR>
the game is the tragedy inherent in the isolation of the characters -<BR>
usually from mortal society, but frequently from vampiric (or supernatural<BR>
society) as well - the characters all share that same alienation. To say<BR>
that folks in such situations can't band together on some level, even if<BR>
it's simply a result of their alienation, is to deny that a group of<BR>
alienated kids would sit around a table and roleplay in the first place.<BR>
<BR>
>And I've seen<BR>
>that typically people do create such characters, which<BR>
>then utterly fail to co-operate. I agree that we need<BR>
>something better than "you meet in an inn and decide<BR>
>to adventure together" to keep the group together,<BR>
>some deeper reason, but I just don't see how it can<BR>
>happen in the World of Darkness.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, to be fair, the Storyteller System is rich with possibilities. There<BR>
are so many levels of supernatural conpiracy going at any given time that<BR>
it's not really all that difficult to come up with reasons for why the<BR>
party's together.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, as I pointed out above, the real reason that a party forms is<BR>
that you've got a bunch of friends sitting around a table in real life. I<BR>
don't think that a game even requires that the party has a "reason" for<BR>
being together.<BR>
<BR>
>So why reinforce the troubles they already have?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Who says it reinforces anything? I don't like reading to much into what a<BR>
game might possibly "reinforce". After all, if we were to dissect Traveller<BR>
with the same scalpel, we might not find things that are all that pleasant.<BR>
If we simply focus on the popular mercenary-style campaigns, we find a<BR>
setting that seems to reinforce doing really nasty and distasteful things -<BR>
like punching holes in people with a gauss rifle - for the purpose of<BR>
profit.<BR>
<BR>
Still, I'm not really in agreement with the idea that games reinforce<BR>
behavior. Once you open that floodgate, you drown the entire roleplaying<BR>
industry and you admit that every media slander against roleplaying, every<BR>
negative stereotype, and groups like Mothers Against Dungeons & Dragons are<BR>
all *right*.<BR>
<BR>
>better a game which encourages sociability,<BR>
>co-operation, and so on. But perhaps I'm thiking too<BR>
>much of the "mentoring" aspects of GMing younger<BR>
>players.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think that you are thinking too much of the "mentoring" aspects of GMing<BR>
younger players. You seem to have an interest in younger players, I advise<BR>
that you get out and try to understand what the world looks like from their<BR>
point of view. With all due respect, you seem to have some misunderstandings<BR>
about it already, and I sincerely don't mean that as an insult.<BR>
<BR>
>You're right, there. But some systems, some genres,<BR>
>lend themselves more easily to that than others. Hands<BR>
>up those who've given up on, or never entered a Star<BR>
>Wars game because they were overwhelmed by film quotes<BR>
>and cliches?:)<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, but across the board from RPG fandom there are all too frequent<BR>
criticisms of the way that the two top games are "played wrong", or played<BR>
in a way that to others is essentially "hollow" in some way. I do think that<BR>
if T5 came out tomorrow and that through some stroke of divine providence it<BR>
found itself as one of the top games we'd find the same kind of collapse<BR>
into cliches and the same breakdown into mindless slaughter.<BR>
<BR>
Having been on the list long enough, I've seen enough  anecdotal evidence<BR>
that lots of Traveller games do break down into one (or both) of those<BR>
camps. It's something that the industry is extremely self-conscious of, but<BR>
which is ultimately detrimental to the hobby as a whole.<BR>
<BR>
>No, it's a complete lack of an ideology - a nihilism,<BR>
>or the pseudo-religion of armchair<BR>
>self-psychoanalysis.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, no, it's not really either of the above. The Storyteller System may<BR>
posture itself in a certain way with some degree of "self help" talk, to<BR>
attach that same concept to a larger movement borders on absurdity. It's<BR>
just simply not true of the larger movement. Goth is not the complete lack<BR>
of ideology any more than the romantic movement in art, literature and<BR>
philsophy was. I can hit my record collection, or my book collection and<BR>
come up with an astonishing amount of information to support my claim. Don't<BR>
take my word for it, though, if you don't believe me, do your own research.<BR>
<BR>
>Certainly I don't think all World of Darkness players<BR>
>are Goths. But you don't find many Goths playing<BR>
>Traveller, that's for sure.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think you may be surprised. I know that fully half of my gaming group were<BR>
goths, and nearly all of the members of my gaming group have some sort of<BR>
direct connection with the scene.<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe we just have more depressed Goths Down Under?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Probably not *different* goths, if the movement looks anything like the way<BR>
it looks in the U.S. and Britain, and I'm betting that barring minor<BR>
differences it does. I'm not saying that goths aren't depressed or that<BR>
those who aren't don't appear that way. I'm saying that the depression or<BR>
the affect of depression doesn't flow from the wellspring of nihilism.<BR>
<BR>
If you just think about it for a moment, you'll see why I'm saying that.<BR>
What's there to be depressed about if you don't believe in anything?<BR>
<BR>
In reality, there are things that pop-up time and time again in the goth<BR>
movement. Interpersonal relationships, or, to put a fine point on it, "love"<BR>
is the backbone of the goth movement. The word "love" is probably the most<BR>
often repeated in goth songs. The concept of love is at the center of much<BR>
of the literature.<BR>
<BR>
There's also the religious paradox. Despite the fact that most goths reject<BR>
traditional religion, and many reject non-traditional religions, Christian<BR>
(and specifically Catholic) imagery, symbolism and trappings are central to<BR>
the movement. Even when religions are attacked in, say, music, it's usually<BR>
the perceived insincerity of religious institutions that is criticized.<BR>
<BR>
The closely linked industrial movement frequently deals with politics and<BR>
economy. I'm already way off topic here though.<BR>
<BR>
>By "method acting" we mean people becoming deeply<BR>
>involved in their characters, to an almost<BR>
>pathological degree. Taking themselves WAY too<BR>
>seriously.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, but have you considered the distinct possibility that *you're*<BR>
taking *them* too seriously? Or that, in point of fact, there are folks who<BR>
find that to be more fun than, say, the more traditional concept of<BR>
roleplaying as rolling dice and deciding what combat your characters are<BR>
going to get into next, or trying to figure out how much money you're going<BR>
to make when you unload your cargo of groat's milk at the next port, or how<BR>
much gold you're going to snatch up from the third level of the dungeon?<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not too sold on the "growing up too<BR>
>fast" idea, either, not when so many are thirty years<BR>
>old living with their parents and never held a steady<BR>
>job types. Kids today, it seems to me, are learning<BR>
>the hard stuff, drugs and violence, without learning<BR>
>the more pleasant stuff - work, relationships<BR>
>(committed).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That is, of course, if you think of "work" and "committed relationships" as<BR>
"the more pleasant stuff". When I say that, I say that with the utmost<BR>
seriousness. Adam Smith, a central figure in the development of the<BR>
capitalist ideology *didn't* share the same opinion of "work". Of course,<BR>
"work" today is a really loaded term, it encompasses those things that are<BR>
"jobs" (and I don't see why any kid should think of flipping beef patties at<BR>
McDonald's as pleasant), "careers" (which are rapidly being phased out in<BR>
America and other parts of the West), and "callings" (I don't mean that in<BR>
the religious sense either, still, they are tough to come by these days).<BR>
<BR>
Committed relationships... well, of course, let's just say that they're not<BR>
what they used to be. In the Western world, we're living in a society where<BR>
therapists spit on love by calling it "co-dependence" and equate it with an<BR>
addiction, while schizophrenically holding onto an ideal that true love wins<BR>
out over all.<BR>
<BR>
Boy, with such competing viewpoints, is it any wonder that so many Western<BR>
relationships are doomed to failure?<BR>
<BR>
Still, in order to really do a fair treatment of that subject, I'd have to<BR>
go back over the course of 200 - 250 years to find the root of the problem,<BR>
and I simply can't justify the use of such bandwidth. In this case, I'll<BR>
simply point you to "After Virtue" by MacIntyre, which deals with the<BR>
general erosion of morality and ethics in modernity[1], and "Habits of the<BR>
Heart" by Bellah et. al. which concerns itself specifically with seeing how<BR>
the problems of modernity[1] manifest themselves in American life. Both are<BR>
excellent books, and I highly recommend them.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Modernity in this sense is not used to describe "today" but to describe<BR>
the Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment trends.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1360<BR>
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